Curse

DONO1 · Aug 06, 2012, 07:39 AM // 07:39

*possible spoilers*

Anyone else agree? Seeing as the Nameless Lich's text during Halloween 2010 was "Be careful who you trust, mortal. Everything here is not what it appears to be.", and that when you talk to her in Vlox's Falls...she tells you to "Be careful...coincidence? Doubtful. The scepter of Orr was clearly in her possession at some point after the end of Eye of the North, and being a necromancer, I can only imagine she would be fascinated at the power of being a lich. Thoughts?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2012, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Livia is still a living human well after the events of Halloween 2010, as that happens shortly after the events of War in Kryta and for years she works as an assistant to Blimm and leader of the Shining Blade. She doesn't even have the Scepter of Orr at that point.

And I fail to see how "be careful" is any indication of a link between two individuals. It's a beyond common phrase. It's a very generic warning.

I really do not get why people so desperately want Livia to be a lich. It's been a common theory since Eye of the North, originally under the misconception that the Scepter of Orr can make liches (it can't, Khilbron was a lich well before he obtained the Scepter of Orr).

DONO1 · Aug 06, 2012, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Does anyone really know the extent of the power that the Scepter of Orr holds? Perhaps it does have the power to turn the wielder into a lich. Obviously Khilbron was a lich before he obtained the scepter, but its power granted him dominion over the undead, so it may well have been a necromantic artifact. Per the official wiki:

"The Scepter of Orr is a relic from the kingdom of Orr and controls forces from beyond the known reality, making this outer world obey the bearer's will."

If the bearer's will is to become a lich, the body is merely a piece of this outer world (and the vessel which carries the mind), and therefore susceptible to the Scepter's powers.

Perhaps she can change back and forth at will...like how Billy Batson can turn into Captain Marvel, or when Thor was put into the body of Donald Blake, but could change back to his godly form using his hammer.

Or maybe she merely created the illusion that she was still human after finding the scepter in order to hide the fact that she did indeed find it. I'm sure Blimm would have quickly forgotten about his Red Asuraline staff if he could have gotten his hands on the Scepter of Orr.

Sagittario · Aug 06, 2012, 10:08 AM // 10:08

I agree with Konig. This is improbable.
I really don't get why people keep wanting to see Livia dead or undead.
The "New sacrifices would be made." doesn't have to mean dying or becoming a lich.

And why would she do that? Dialogues and cinematics with her reveal more than enough of her personality, I don't believe this all would be fake or that she turned evil.
And remember, she's our hero, she travels with us!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DONO1

"The Scepter of Orr is a relic from the kingdom of Orr and controls forces from beyond the known reality, making this outer world obey the bearer's will."

If the bearer's will is to become a lich, the body is merely a piece of this outer world (and the vessel which carries the mind), and therefore susceptible to the Scepter's powers.

The scepter is very powerful artefact that channels necrotic energy, so only mighty and powerful necromancers can use it. Lich is a necromancer with immense power, but NOT vice-versa.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2012, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DONO1

its power granted him dominion over the undead, so it may well have been a necromantic artifact.

According to Khilbron, who already held sway over undead, it can control undead.

But not according to Khilbron, it affects energy and titans - the latter are made from tormented souls, and souls are effectively the same as the former. Other than the initial undead Khilbron summons, the only undead he summons are Shock Phantoms... souls, in other words. So the only power the Scepter of Orr truly can have, is power over souls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DONO1

If the bearer's will is to become a lich, the body is merely a piece of this outer world (and the vessel which carries the mind), and therefore susceptible to the Scepter's powers.

That's not how it works. The body is physical no matter how the wielder wills. The Wiki is, btw, fan-written. I in fact wrote that bit. And I wrote it as a parrallel to what the Staff of the Mists is said to control - in mechanics, it affects health, but in lore it affects the "physical world."

A lich in GW seems to be two things: undead, and the soul bound to the body. Effectively, to use the Scepter of Orr to become a lich, one must also use the Staff of the Mists or some powerful necrotic force. The Scepter of Orr is more similar to a ritualist's power than a necromancer's.

There's also the fact that Livia has no reason to be in the Shiverpeaks just after the Krytan civil war. She just got promoted to be the leader of the Shining Blade, and she holds an immense loyalty to Kryta. She isn't going to just run off when she's given new responsibilities in protecting the nation she would, quite literally, do anything for (including willingly sacrifice her own men to Gadd's experiments).

DONO1 · Aug 06, 2012, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

According to Khilbron, who already held sway over undead, it can control undead. So the only power the Scepter of Orr truly can have, is power over souls.

Put together, these two statements cancel each other out as the dead have no souls...unless they're a lich. You specifically address this unique set of events below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

A lich in GW seems to be two things: undead, and the soul bound to the body. Effectively, to use the Scepter of Orr to become a lich, one must also use the Staff of the Mists or some powerful necrotic force. The Scepter of Orr is more similar to a ritualist's power than a necromancer's.

You also take note of the fact that to use the Scepter of Orr to become a lich, one must also use either the Staff of the Mists or some other powerful necrotic source...Livia herself was a powerful necromancer. On top of that, the most likely place Livia discovered the Scepter was Orr itself, and we all know who slumbered beneath its broken shores. Perhaps Livia tapped into Zhaitan's power (much like the asura tapped into Primordus' power)...thinking it was merely residual necrotic energy left over from the multiple deaths associated with the Cataclysm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

She isn't going to just run off when she's given new responsibilities in protecting the nation she would, quite literally, do anything for (including willingly sacrifice her own men to Gadd's experiments).

I'm 100% certain she left Gadd's employ specifically due to his not caring about the safety of her men...which is why she joined the player's company.

Sagittario · Aug 06, 2012, 03:48 PM // 15:48

You want to belive this no matter all arguments.

Zenzai · Aug 06, 2012, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Be careful! Oh no, I must be a lich too!

Konig Des Todes · Aug 06, 2012, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DONO1

Put together, these two statements cancel each other out as the dead have no souls...unless they're a lich. You specifically address this unique set of events below.

False. Many undead - especially those like Fendi Nin and the crew of the Queen of Fools (corsair undead) and Joko's undead have souls.

And they don't cancel each other out, not necessarily, but the point is that Khilbron already had control of undead. It wasn't solely the Scepter of Orr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DONO1

You also take note of the fact that to use the Scepter of Orr to become a lich, one must also use either the Staff of the Mists or some other powerful necrotic source...Livia herself was a powerful necromancer. On top of that, the most likely place Livia discovered the Scepter was Orr itself, and we all know who slumbered beneath its broken shores. Perhaps Livia tapped into Zhaitan's power (much like the asura tapped into Primordus' power)...thinking it was merely residual necrotic energy left over from the multiple deaths associated with the Cataclysm.

What says she's powerful. She's a necromancer, true, but nothing says powerful. And by powerful I'm talking about shit like the Cataclysm, which turned Khilbron into a lich. We don't know how Joko or Zoldark became liches mind you, but there are ancient powerful magical events they could have been affected by.

And again: Livia has not yet gone to Orr by the time of the Halloween 2010 events. Or Halloween 2011 events.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DONO1

I'm 100% certain she left Gadd's employ specifically due to his not caring about the safety of her men...which is why she joined the player's company.

She left when it became evident she could gain no more from Gadd and she was risking her life for no good reason. She had sacrificed her men because it was for the good of Kryta, but once it was no longer evident it was for the good of Kryta, she left his employment.

Sagittario · Aug 07, 2012, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenzai

Be careful! Oh no, I must be a lich too!

Ohh noes! All our necro heroes are lichs and they plan an evil treason agains us!

Gill Halendt · Aug 07, 2012, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Evennia... The Nameless Lich MUST be Evennia!

Konig Des Todes · Aug 08, 2012, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Evennia... The Nameless Lich MUST be Evennia!

That would actually make more sense than Livia. We don't know Evennia's whereabouts after WiK.

draxynnic · Aug 08, 2012, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Being silly is one thing. Personal attacks are another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

She left when it became evident she could gain no more from Gadd and she was risking her life for no good reason. She had sacrificed her men because it was for the good of Kryta, but once it was no longer evident it was for the good of Kryta, she left his employment.

I think there may be an element that Vekk showed her just how callous Gadd was being. Livia was probably thinking of those who died in Gadd's experiments as essentially soldiers fighting on a different front, when it was actually just a case of "Bookahs willing to take the risk are cheaper"

DONO1 · Aug 08, 2012, 08:36 PM // 20:36

At this point, its 50% yes and 50% no since there is no official word on who the Nameless Lich actually is. Its fun to discuss the lore and the possibilities. If that were not the case, no one would be here. Nothing I've suggested can be disproved until ANET deems it time to reveal the true identity. Place your bets.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 09, 2012, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Technically, it's closer to 0% yes, because Livia is in Kryta at the time of the events the Nameless Lich is seen. This is a known fact considering she's a brand new leader of the Shining Blade.

DONO1 · Aug 09, 2012, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Technically, it's closer to 0% yes, because Livia is in Kryta at the time of the events the Nameless Lich is seen. This is a known fact considering she's a brand new leader of the Shining Blade.

Fine. 49.9% yes 50.1% no. Only because I'm generous, and not opposed to views other than my own.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 26, 2012, 11:13 AM // 11:13

There's nothing to support this theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true.